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Entropy. / My opinion /.

 
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socratus



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:31 am    Post subject: Entropy. / My opinion /. Reply with quote

Entropy. / My opinion /.
1.
Henry Poincare named the conception of "entropy "
as a " surprising abstract ".
2.
L. Landau (Dau) wrote:
" A question about the physical basis of the
entropy monotonous increasing law remains open ".
3.
The famous mathematician John von Neumann said to
"the father of information theory" Claude Shannon:
" Name it "entropy" then in discussions
you will receive solid advantage, because
nobody knows, what "entropy" basically is ".
=============..
1.
Between 1850 - 1865 Rudolf Clausius published a paper
in which he called " The energy conservation law" as
" The first law of thermodynamics". But in our nature the
heat always flows from the higher temperature to the
lower one and never back. In our everyday life we don't see
the heat itself rises from cold to hot. So, it seemed that
in thermodynamics " The energy conservation law"
wasn’t kept, this law was broken. But Clausius had another
opinion. He thought: I know people believe that this process is
irreversible, but I am sure that " The energy conservation law"
is universal law and it must be correct also for thermodynamic
process. So, how can I save this law ?
Probably, in the thermodynamic process there is something
that we don't know. Maybe, there is some degradation
of the total energy in the system which never disappears .
Perhaps, there is some non-useful heat, some unseen process ,
some unknown dark energy , some another form of potential
energy/heat itself which can transform heat from the cold
body to the warm one. I will call this conception as " entropy"
and as it is not a law I take it as " The second principle
of thermodynamics " which says that " the entropy of an isolated
system always increases ". Another version: " No process is possible
in which the only result is the transfer of heat from a hotter to a
colder body. It is possible some reversible process which is
unknown now ."
2.
Between 1870 - 1880 Ludwig Boltzmann said:
" Clausius is right. But I can add more to his entropy conception.
First.
According to Classic physics when an isolated thermodynamic
system comes to a thermal equilibrium all particles stop their
moving. From one hand it is correct. But the system cannot be
at thermal equilibrium (in the state of death) all the time.
The situation in the system must change.
Therefore I say that at the thermal equilibrium the entropy
(some unknown dark/potential energy ) of the system will
reach maximum and as a result , the thermal equilibrium
of the system will change.
Second.
I don't know how exactly the thermal equilibrium of the system
changes. But I can give probabilistic / statistical interpretation
of this changing process. I can write " The second principle of
thermodynamics" by a formula: S= k log W and this formula
says:" the entropy of the system is the collective result of
mechanical motions of all the particles (k)."
I will call it as " The second law of Thermodynamics."
3
In 1900 Max Planck said:
Clausius and Boltzmann are both right.
But all my life I worked almost exclusively on problems
related to thermodynamics. And I am sure that the " The second
law of Thermodynamics" , concerning entropy, is deeper and it
says more than is generally accepted. I am sure the Boltzmann's
probabilistic /statistical version of "The second law of
Thermodynamics " is not completed, is not final.
Please, look at the graph of the radiation curves of the " black body".
They are very similar to those curves which are calculated
by Maxwell for the velocity (i.e. energy) distribution of gas
molecules in a closed container. Could this black body radiation
problem be studied in the same way as Maxwell's ideal gas....
...electromagnetic waves ? This problem of connection between
radiation of black body and Maxwell's Electrodynamics theory
doesn't give me peace. Maxwell's theory can tell everything
about the emission, absorption and propagation of the radiation,
but nothing about the energy distribution at thermal
equilibrium. What to do? How to be ?
After trying every possible approach using traditional
classical applications of the laws of thermodynamics
I was desperated. And I was forced to consider that the
relation between entropy, Boltzmann's probability version
and Maxwell's theory is possible to solve by suggestion ,
that energy is radiated and absorbed with discrete
individual quanta particle (E= hv). So, now I must write
" The second law of Thermodynamics " by formula:
hv = k log W.
But I was so surprised and sceptical of such interpretation the
entropy that I spent years trying to explain this result
in another , less revolutionary way. It was difficult for me
to accept this formula and to understand it essence .
It was hard for me to believe in my own discovery.
==================..
My conclusion.
How to understand this formula?
Which process does formula (hv = k logW ) describe ?
1.
In 1877 Boltzmann suggested that the energy/mass state
of a physical system (of ideal gas ) could be discreted.
This idea was written with formula: R/N=k. It means:
there are particles with energy/mass state (k) in physical
system of ideal gas . They dont move, they are in the
state of rest.
2.
In 1900 Planck followed Boltzmann's method of dividing.
Planck suggested that energy was radiated and absorbed
with discrete "energy elements" - " quantum of energy"-
- " Planck's action constant"- (h) . Its energy is: E=hv.
3.
In which reference frame does this process take place?
In thermodynamical reference frame of ideal gas and
black body (Laue called this model as Kirchhoff,s vacuum).
Now it is considered that these models are abstract ones which
do not exist in nature. On my opinion these models explain
the situation in the real Vacuum (T=0K) very well.
4.
For my opinion the formula (hv = k logW ) says:
a)
The reason of " entropy" , the source of thermal equilibrium's
fluctuation , the source of Vacuum fluctuation is an action of
the particle /electron, which has energy: E = hv.
b)
The process of Vacuum fluctuation depends on collective
motions of all particles (k) and will be successful if enough
statistical quantity of Boltzmann's particles ( k logW)
surround the electron.
c)
Which process does the formula (hv = k logW ) say about ?
This formula explains the beginning conditions of gravitation,
the beginning conditions of star formation.
( The article of star formation is posted on this site.)
d)
One physicist said :" The entropy is only a shadow of energy“.
Maybe now somebody can understand why entropy is a shadow.
And maybe now somebody will understand why
" The Law of conservation and transformation of energy"
is also correct for thermodynamic system.
===========..
P.S.
It took me only two month to write this brief article.
Plus about three years searching for the key of entropy problem.
Plus about twenty-three years trying to understand the essence
of physical laws and formulas.
==============..
Best wishes.
_________________
The secret of God and Existence is hiding in the ' Theory of Vacuum and Light Quanta. '
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socratus



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy. / My opinion./ One comment.

# [A law] is more impressive the greater the simplicity of its
premises, the more different are the kinds of things it relates, and
the more extended its range of applicability. Therefore, the deep
impression which classical thermodynamics made on me. It is the only
physical theory of universal content, which I am convinced, that
within the framework of applicability of its basic concepts will never
be overthrown.

Albert Einstein, quoted in M.J. Klein, Thermodynamics in Einstein's
Universe, in Science, 157 (1967), p. 509.

# The law that entropy always increases -- the second law of
thermodynamics -- holds I think, the supreme position among the laws
of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the
universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations - then so much
worse for Maxwell equations. If it is found to be contradicted by
observation - well these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes.
But if your theory is found to be against the second law of
Thermodynamics, I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to
collapse in deepest humiliation.

Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington, in The Nature of the Physical World.
Maxmillan, New York, 1948, p. 74.

As a father of objective information physics your painstaking analysis
of entropy has been a great torment to me. It took you three months
and a lifetime to figure it out and it has been my obsession as well.

Planck resented that entropy could not be taken as a first principle
of the universe and had to eat the fact that is is fully accounted for
by statistical emergence. But the root of his consternation was, I
believe, in that the equation hv = k log W energy and entropy are
shown to be equivalent despite the obvious contradiction.

there is no contradiction that as the internal energy of a system
increases, so does the entropy. The contradiction lies in the basic
principles, energy is considered the ability to do work, and entropy
is the loss of the ability to do work. clearly they must be opposite,
they cannot be the same.

There is a similar discrepancy in Shannon, calling the measure of
information entropy (S) as it echoed the equation, S = k log W. This
issue is, in my view, one of the two good reasons why nobody would
erase "energy=information " from the board as the Santa Fe Institute
for many years. Clearly entropy is the loss of useful information.
Information cannot be the loss of information. They must be opposite.

In classical philosophy this is an undecidable problem, induction does
not serve us, thus our consternation. Static truth cannot explain the
problem. We are forced to resort to dynamical logic to discover the
truth.

I explain this in terms of the information cycle. In dynamical
systems order emerges from a disordered substrate. Information
increases as order emerges. Once the order becomes so complicated
that if is incomprehensible, it becomes disorder relatively in the big
picture and just noise from which simple order emerges becoming more
complex until is becomes noise again.

My issue with hv = k log W is the quantization that it represents,
clearly it is the discrete integer increments of energy that prevents
the ultraviolet catastrophe and accounts for observed spectra. But
most all authors write this a nhv, or an integer n, times Planks
constant, times the frequency. And while the value is clearly very
small why should it be exactly h in satisfaction of human units of
measurement?

It seems to me that nature clearly contradicts the notion that energy
is only present in hv increments. All energy is shown accurately to
be determined by the change in momentum state. We know momentum
states only exist in integer multiples of hbar, h/2pi, the difference
in momentum between any two states. Since double the momentum is four
times the energy, the possible energies are not discrete by a constant
value, but increase in granularity to a singularity at the Plank
energy.

Furthermore, given hbar, h/2pi increments in momentum, and that hbar
represents a single bit of measurable information in the quantum, it
is the natural unit of entropy for physical systems.

It may take me another lifetime to fully comprehend hv = k log W as
each week it offers a new revelation. The anthropic principle is
exhibited for our existence itself, by the simple fact, that pi can
only be approximated and that space time systems in general tend to
hv = k log W, the impossibility of which, insures our increasing
diversity, and negative entropy in our realm, contrernating not only
the spirits of Einstein and Eddington but also that of Aristotle and
Plato.

The simple truth is that nature herself is evidence of the violation
of the second law and Philosophy itself can do nothing but to collapse
in deepest humiliation as the spirit of Socrates laughs, we do not
know what we think we know.

Jim
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David



Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 865
Location: Big Island Down Under

PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings Jim,

Who are you?

cheers

David
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Manjo



Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 309
Location: NL

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Entropy Reply with quote

My thoughts of entropy (wiki thoughts):

Information theory-> entropy is a measure of uncertainty,
the wiki page is OK i think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_entropy

Entropy from other perspectives, thermodynamics etc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_%28disambiguation%29

A key assumption in physics is that a system is closed.
This means that the total sum of energy at any time does not change,
it is not influenced from the outside world/dimensions etc.

My simplification:
When you know the total amount of entropy/energy at a
certain moment in the system, this will not change. This makes the system
predictable and dead in a certain way. The only fun in the system is
changing the energy from one state to another.

The Wonders and other channeled sources state that no one system
is closed. In one way or another, unpredictable back doors exist by which
the energy of a system can change.

As a simple example take tape voices.
The random movement (at minimum energy) of tape noise is modulated by an unknown back door and generate a percieved voice, increasing the
energy of the signal on the tape.

Science will never include this in their functions because the inherent
demand for reproducability of the result.

In case of tape voices, you can account for them by stating that if you take an ensemble average of a million, or a million million pieces of
noise on tapes, a tiny probability exists that the noise sounds like a voice.
The ensembe average though, is in line with the predicted average, and
other statistical parameters.

Note that science will also work towards the predicted statistical parameters. Meaning that measurements that are too far off are rejected.

This predictability, reproducablity ethic is chosen. It is a control
perspective. This means that my university trains me to look for the
control perspective and be blind for the open, unpredictable aspect
of the system.

The first statement of existence by TW states that i can choose
differently .. because (my system) my existence is an extension of ME,
and i therefore have free will and free choice.
This means i can go with the predictable scenario or otherwise if i choose.

M.
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socratus



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two different opinions about Entropy.

I have received two emails.
1.
Dear Socratus,
I realize that you sent a brief attempt to describe your search
for understanding of a difficult subject.

I am knowledgeable about Nonequilibrium Superconductivity
from my work in the 1970's. There was a thirty year gap
between my studying Statistical Mechanics in graduate school
and teaching it to upper-level undergraduates. I am teaching
thermodynamics right now as three chapters of an introductory sequence.
........................................
...................................
With the development of quantum mechanics, we have both theory
and experiments that show that E=hf is the energy delivered in
packets by wavelike particles of frequency f.
(The frequency is often written as "nu" which I take to be your "v".)
This energy is a different kind of quantity than Boltzmann's
expression for the entropy S = k_B log(*Omega*).
You should NOT set them equal.
E has units of Joules and S has units of Joules/Kelvin.
(Note the 1/T in the thermodynamic definition of S.)
Don't try to understand a relationship that is not correct!

B. S.
Professor of Physics
Boston University
2.
Dear Israel Sadovnik,
..............................................
....................................................
I am, at this moment, working on a statistical mechanics section of a text.
At the core of this is, of course, the second law.
I learn more about the second law almost my the day.
I find it particularly distasteful when people try to reduce this
to a statement about the number of quantum states,
as American advocates of "Thermal Physics" try to.
.....................................
...........................
C. H.
Professor of Physics
Goshen College
=================....
I want to explain these two classic opinions.


1.
So, B. S. says to me:
The solution of entropy (its reversion: when heat can go from
cold to hot ) is only probabilistic/statistical: S= k log W.
Don't try to understand it in another way.
You should NOT set E=hv (E=hf) equal to the klogW.
Don't try to understand a relationship that is not correct!
In another words B. S. says:
We shall never know what was before: an egg or a hen.
It is only probabilistic/statistical solution.
I don't agree with this opinion. Why?
Take, for example, the " big bang " theory.
According to this theory our Universe exists for 13 ( +)
billion years. But to create a child from a cell (zigota)
in only 280 days according to probabilistic/statistical
theory is not possible. This process will take, maybe,
more then 13 ( +) billion years. So, we can understand
what the pregnant woman was before the " big bang ". And
to answer on the question:" what was before: an egg or a hen ?"
we must only look at the beginning, in the Vacuum.
2.
C. H. hopes that there is a dipper explanation of the Entropy.
My opinion.
In 1915 Einstein has finished his GRT.
In 1916 K. Schwarzschild described gravitational field,
creating with static sphere having constant mass.
In 1963 P. P. Kerr described gravitational field, creating
with static rotating sphere having constant mass.
In 1965 P.P. Kerr and E.T. Newman described gravitational
field, creating with static rotating sphere having constant
mass and electrical charge.
So, when I put E=hv (hf) in the Boltzmann's expression for
the entropy S = k logW (*Omega*) it is not heretical idea.
So, the relationship between hv (hf) and k logW is possible
and correct.
================...
Questions:
1.
What is heat?
Heat is the collective result of mechanical motion
and friction of all the particles .
This process is described with Boltzmann's
probabilistic /statistical formula: S= k log W.
2.
What produces heat?
The energy E=hv (hf) produces heat, setting in mechanical
motion and friction of all particles. This fact is described with
Planck formula: hv = klogW.
3.
Thanks to Entropy the homogeneous Vacuum is broken.
Thanks to Entropy the micro process changes into
macro process.
Thanks to Entropy the stars formation takes place.
Thanks to Entropy the process of creating elements is take place.
Thanks to Entropy the process of evolution is going.
4.
Why is " The second law of Thermodynamics"
so universal? Because it is based on
" The Law of conservation and transformation of energy"
And this law is not the simple accounting solution of debit and credit.
The sense of this law is dipper and it says more than is usually accepted.
========================..
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socratus



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 199
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion about “ black hole”
=================================..


A black hole is a region of space in which the gravitational field is so powerful that nothing,
not even light, can escape its pull after having fallen past its event horizon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole

=========================.
But to give only such explanation of “ black hole” is not complete.
There is another alternative.
There is another interpretation of “ black hole”.

A “ black hole” is not a “region of space in which the
gravitational field is so powerful that nothing, not even light,
can escape its pull “ but…..
but region with very small density (critical density : p = 10^-29g/sm^3).

And the detected material mass of the matter in the Universe
is so small (the average density of all substance in the
Universe is approximately less than p=10^-30 g/sm^3)
that the “ black hole” is only a model of our Universe / Vacuum
as a whole .
===========.
Best wishes
Israel
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