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Stupidity

 
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Frederic



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:01 am    Post subject: Stupidity Reply with quote

For as long as I can remember, I have always thought that the main defining trait of humankind is stupidity.

If intelligence is the ability to "link things together", stupidity is the capacity to exclude and to not perceive the links between things.

There is nothing wrong with that per se. You need some stupidity to have an ego and to experience this existence.

I suppose it is a matter of degrees.

You would not expect that some idiot(s) could gun down all the main stars from Hollywood on the same day. Or assassinate all the most gifted soccer players.

Yet some idiots did kill Cabu, Wolinski, Charb and Tignous yesterday (I am not forgetting Honoré, Elsa Cayat, Mustapha Ourad or Bernard Maris).

It is not a complete surprise, given that these guys had been under the threat of death for many years.

They said on numerous occasions that they would rather die standing than hide.

And they did.

I respect that. Because in contexts that are not quite so dramatic, I have asked myself for some time now if I wanted to be « seen ». And the answer has been a consistent « no ». I'd rather hide.

That is my « stupidity » for now, and like all idiots, I love it as it is.
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, who you calling stupid? har har har...

Yea, sad to see yet more killings over such stupidity. There are always consequences for our actions, of course. Being seen for pushing other peoples buttons to get a laugh or sell some papers at the expense of others isn't really all that commendable in my books. Obviously no reason for violence and I'm all for satire and freedom but if your knowingly poking fun at people who you know are willing to kill you and blow themselves up, then you're kinda taking matters into your own hands at that point.

Why not be seen for being inclusive, loving, kind, and still funny!? Well, as it turns out that can get you killed too, so damned if you do damned if you don't in the land of stupidity.

I guess the thing with hiding is that you only ever really experience things by looking out the window.
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like "The Wonders" are gearing up for a year of inclusivity and regarding the whole instead of just ourselves all the time. Will be a much needed blast of energy.

It will probably be a few hundred years yet before we get it through our thick skulls though. Maybe thousands...

"Love everyone". Very difficult thing to do.
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Frederic



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not that difficult in theory once you realize there is no separation... there is no « out there » out there... it is you... now the practice Very Happy

Quote:
Being seen for pushing other peoples buttons to get a laugh or sell some papers at the expense of others isn't really all that commendable in my books


From what I know, this is not what they were about. And certainly not regarding « selling some papers at the expense of others».

The irony is that Charlie Hebdo would probably have disappeared on its own a few months from now because of a lack of readership (less and less readers, bankruptcy nearing).

I am certainly biased, because Wolinski was 80 and Cabu 75 or 76, so most of us in the French speaking world have known these guys since we were born.

I grew up watching Cabu draw on a TV show for children. He was a genuine nice guy as far as I am concerned.

They were all eternal teenagers, and maybe they should have been more “adult”, but I really do not know what that means.

Anyhow... thanks for the perspectives Jeff... I am seriously thinking of declaring bankruptcy on this forum because of a lack of a readership Wink


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEaiN_ThjXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfhFDC9eGFE

"Right wing" Jeanette Bougrab was "left wing" Charb's girlfriend (she was also the Chair of the French Equal Opportunities and Anti-Discrimination Commission)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOzHCvf1jQ

Wolinksi on the future being "death"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCgxx8pWgGE
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you Fred. Not to paint them all with such a broad stroke and with all do respect to the deceased, I guess that if your aim is to target people who clearly don't have a sense of humour about this stuff, well...Just because this happened doesn't make it good satire in my opinion. A lot of racist undertones and that's the thing with satire, ok you can say whatever you want and say oh it's just a joke, but it's like that saying " many a truth is uttered in jest" You can say how you really feel under that satire guise. The other thing with the Je suis Charlie thing is that as much as everyone says "they are Charlie" are they really? Is everyone posting racially charged religious jokes about Muslims on they're Facebooks and twitters? No they're not because it's kind of an asshole thing to do, right. Everyone is saying it's about freedoms of speech, we have to be free and no one can tell us what to write and joke about. Well, nobody is saying that. They just pissed off a bunch of people who are willing to march in there and shoot everyone. To me that's all this is about.

Also, were constantly at war this region... it's like a big Chritian vs Muslim world out there these days. France , US, UK, have bases there, we've been at war with them for decades, we kill their innocent people with our drones and troops and bombs, we're constantly terrorizing them ( their behaviour is defiantly not helping) but one can expect a little retaliation once and a while from a religion that is a few billion strong if the "civilzed people" keeping prodding them. Can you imagine if a Muslim nation wanted to build an army base outside of Paris, just because. People would lose their minds at the thought of it.

Anyway, I just think this whole Je Suis Charlie thing is missing the point.

Anyway...Happy New Year Fred, and yea this forum...deadsville...ah well what can ya do. I had the pleasure of listening to the Existing Beyond The Physical workshop lately. Amazing working.... Shocked you'd love it!

Hope you're enjoying yourself out there. Hugs and love to you my friend

Jeff


Last edited by Jeff on Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Love everyone" sounds so easy doesn't it?
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Frederic



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A lot of racist undertones


Have you actually read Charlie Hebdo or just what people say about it (by typically putting it out of context) ?

Have you seen the cartoons about the other religions in there?

To me they are clearly targeting the extremists, never a race or a people.

But then again... that is my interpretation... so I might be completely wrong... and yes, if you target people with no humor, you are at risk... but there will always be someone who is offended, whatever you do... so then it is your choice : shut up or not... (As I said, I am more of a coward, and I would probably shut up).

Anyway... I do not think "Je suis Charlie" means you feel entitled to post racially charged jokes... it means killing people does not kill ideas and ideals (I guess)...

Finally, to me, this is not retaliation from the "muslims". I know some of them who actually laugh when they read Charlie Hebdo.

This is about 2 young French guys who wanted to be rappers or something like that, and ended up being convinced by some clever people that it would be a good idea to do this. And I am almost 100% certain that those clever people do not care a bit about religion...

In any case... always good to have different perspectives... Thanks Smile
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have read some of them yes, and I know they write about all religions and I agree, Fred, that most people 'get it' and can have a laugh. I also agree about people getting offended for a million different reasons and I would never suggest tailoring your truth because other people might get offended , and I'm not siding with anyone here and I'm definitely not suggesting anyone stop speaking their mind because of fear or intimidation. I'm just saying is it all really that funny? In this world climate, is it really helping to unite people. It's easy to take jabs at people for whatever reason, but if you're going to do it, it can come with some baggage.

Maybe a misunderstanding. I was just saying that everyone saying I am Charlie and I stand with them, in theory sure. We all stand for freedom of expression and freedom period, but not everyone who says they're are with them is doing what they're doing and pushing buttons just because they're free to do so. I guess with that freedom of the pen, comes some responsibility. And obviously this killing is insane and I know it's not a "Muslim reaction" but this kind of stuff fuels the ones who are just looking to lash out. It's ridiculous, I know. I'm no expert on everything Charlie Hebdo has done. But to me this kind of satire although sometimes funny, can also just be really cheap and really just fuels the fire sometimes. I dunno...It's just a feeling I got after seeing this all go down. Just one point of view and I totally see and agree with you as well.

It's sad either way.
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Frederic



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed with everything you said... I know it is surprising Very Happy

Once again, I personally love to discuss with someone who has other perspectives... thank you for that... although we end up agreeing Laughing

Enjoy the week-end.
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is shocking...I don't believe you. Smile

I read this just now. I kinda agree with Tony Barber, I'm all for complete freedom and having a laugh at the absurdity of what we do whether it be religion or otherwise, but It's like, OK, you can write this stuff, go ahead we're all free, but is it really that funny? or that cool when you're just provoking people, especially when you know it's just going to press buttons and stir the pot. Most people 'get it' and can have a laugh, but maybe in this world climate this stuff just isn't necessary? and it's just kind lame and not unifying. Part my nature is button pushing, but it's not cool and not kind and just not necessary.


Here is someone who is not Charlie: Tony Barber, of the Financial Times, who wrote yesterday:

“Charlie Hebdo has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling French Muslims. If the magazine stops just short of outright insults, it is nevertheless not the most convincing champion of the principle of freedom of speech. France is the land of Voltaire, but too often editorial foolishness has prevailed at Charlie Hebdo.”
Editorial foolishness!
He went on: “This is not in the slightest to condone the murderers, who must be caught and punished, or to suggest that freedom of expression should not extend to satirical portrayals of religion. It is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo, and Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten, which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims, but are actually just being stupid.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/01/we-are-not-all-charlie-hebdo-attack/384319/
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Frederic



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any problem with "pushing buttons", as long as you accept the consequences Wink

You are free to do it (I have a bit of a conceptual problem to call freedom something that begins with "you are free but"), just like you are actually free not to read that paper if it offends you - what a concept !

It is my French side I guess...

"France is the land of Voltaire" as you quoted, and I suppose part of it is really cultural and it does not mean that there is an intent to divide, but I will not be able to explain that here with a few words...

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to show love, but some ways are more stupid or dangerous (it applies to both sides) Smile

I find that what Gavroche sung in "Les Misérables" is quite appropriate (though I take it out of its original context) :

Je suis tombé par terre, c'est la faute à Voltaire.

I fell down. It is Voltaire's fault.

(The "official" translation is "I have fallen to the earth, 'Tis the fault of Voltaire")

So... how do we go beyond our "culture"? Do we want to? Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE6Ct4WBRow
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Jeff



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 2648
Location: Toronto.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good clip. My dad used to play the music from Les Mis full blast at home and sing along..Smile when I was a kid. Great music.

Voltaire was quite the philosopher/writer for sure. But he also wrote a lot about tolerance and love. Maybe that balance is all that's needed if you're going to go the route of 'extreme satire' just so the readers know your not just an ignorant asshole. It is good in a world full of madness to remind the public of just how absurd our behaviour is.

It's an interesting question: What makes something genuinely funny? Where you actually joyfully laugh. To me it's when someone just points the absurdity of what do, but in a way that's not degrading or insulting. There is no shortage of material here on Earth, but it's all in the delivery and to me if you have to really go below the belt and insult people on purpose because the button pushing effect will get attention and 'laughs' because woooo your so brave you insulted Mohammed...yawn. It's not really funny. It's a cheap shot and all I meant by the racial undertone is that typically French nose up in the air attitude that we can say whatever we want , we're so civilized so don't you tell us what we can and can't say, kind of vibe, but really it's just stupidity.

How do we go beyond culture?

To me the fascination with culture is sometimes born out of fear and separation? Is culture really that important? Why don't the 'world leaders' or anyone in the media just say hey we acknowledge that hey you are us, sure we don't agree with your beliefs, but hey you don't agree with ours so there you go. What can we do to bring us closer to understanding and getting along. Everything is always about protecting ourselves from others, protecting our way of life, or culture as the case may be. But if we came from the inclusive perspective and started the conversation of what can do to help bring us all together then we might find eventually that our culture would go from all these separate races, religions and beliefs to more of a ' human culture' eventually. Would culture even be that important if we began so see the whole instead of just ourselves? do we fear losing ou culture only because we define ourselves by it? If we started to ask more inclusive questions of each other the whole divisive game would start to break down and then we'd be admitting to ourselves the 4th defining statement.

Maybe I'm out of context again but , just chatting.
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Frederic



Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 1035

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are not out of context (and who cares if you were Smile )

Quote:
if you have to really go below the belt and insult people on purpose because the button pushing effect will get attention and 'laughs' because woooo your so brave you insulted Mohammed...yawn

This is where our perceptions differ... I find this very offensive and insulting to the memory of who they were and I condemn you to death by swallowing 100 Belgian waffles...


Quote:
that typically French nose up in the air attitude that we can say whatever we want , we're so civilized so don't you tell us what we can and can't say

Isn't that a bit... racist? Though I cannot disagree completely Very Happy
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